I told you at the outset that neither you nor I are public health experts, but you keep insisting on a report. I am not going to spend any more time on google because, frankly, I just don’t care. I can either rely on my memory or the references I have shown, which put the fatalities well over any toll you have put up.

“News flash, Iraq has its own government (warts and all)” Oh, my God that is funny. Be sure to repeat this sentence on September 1, after Maliki has been tossed out. Oh, that’s right, almost forgot. In the Roach world, the coup won’t at all be U.S.-engineered, and we will in no way be responsible for the leader who takes his place.

I’m getting dizzy watching you chase your tail in futility so this will be my last post on this. If I really wanted to be a pain I might question why you would reference a quote that includes the following “Although research on the effects of Agent Orange have been inconclusive because of inherent biases in sampling” in support of your claim.

You keep equating increased risk of cancer (which I haven’t seen anyone argue about) with a specific death toll. Why not just admit you (nor anyone else it seems) don’t know now many people died from Agent Orange exposure (I’m nor arguing the number is zero) but you feel that it is a greater number then died from other causes.

How is saying a government is responsible for providing a stable, secure environment for its people equal to calling for a nanny state? Don’t forget that I also included the Mexican governments support of and failure to stop illegal immigration as contributing to their responsibility. Look at the difference in their actions on their southern and northern borders for my point. The funny part of all this is I understand their side of the equation and in a purely economic model it makes sense. Anyway, this all started with you asking me my opinion (you know feeling, belief, etc) and there you have it, yes I think the Mexican government bears a leve of responsibility for these deaths.

News flash, Iraq has its own government (warts and all) but nice try there in getting in one of your anti american digs.

You’re wasting my time: “Researchers have found that during the spraying of Agent Orange in southern Vietnam, dioxin levels in human tissues were as high as 900 times greater in Vietnamese living in South Vietnam than those living in North Vietnam where Agent Orange was not used…citizens in southern Vietnam may be at a greater risk of cancers, adverse reproductive and development effects, and immune deficiency” (Arison, 1995).
In laboratory studies, tests using 2 parts of dioxin per trillion (ppt) in lab animals would cause stillbirths and death. In comparison, US servicemen returning from Vietnam had 50 ppt or more in their bloodstream (www.community-net.com). Although research on the effects of Agent Orange have been inconclusive because of inherent biases in sampling, a 1986 study conducted by the National Cancer Institute showed that “farmers who were exposed to 2,4-D an ingredient in Agent Orange, showed…six times more non-Hodgkin’s lymphomas than farmers not exposed” (Ibid). Additionally, Marines who were on active duty during the defoliation program had a 110% higher rate of the same disorder (Ibid).”

As to your Mexico argument, negligent homicide requires that a person die while under the accused’s “care”. If you’re saying that a country has this level of “care” for its citizens, you really need to find a nanny state. Saying that it’s the individual’s responsiblity, but the country’s legal duty is a total contradiction. But that’s par for the course in conservativeland these days.

Remember the 30% increased risk of death you sited earlier doesn’t mean a 30% mortality rate. Similarly victim does not equal dead.

The 2003 Columbia study (AP article about it below) says 4.5 million people were exposed but not that they died and the Vietnamese government number is also for victims not deaths. The same article states that 1 million Vietnamese require some sort of disability.

http://home.att.net/~vet_updates/moreagentorange.htm

This Asia Times article (earlier article) also references 1m total exposed:

http://www.atimes.com/se-asia/DC19Ae01.html

If anything these articles are hurting your case since you started with 9 million exposed and not it looks like 3-5m at the top end.

As for Mexico, yes I believe that a government has a responsibility to its people to create a framework that allows for the individual to better themselves. This included a functional education system, a stable infrastructure, and yes solid economic factors such as money supply, inflation, taxes structure etc. If the government doesn’t provide this foundation their are negligent in their responsibilities to their citizens.

As a conservative (like thats a big ugly word or something) I believe it is still up to the individual to take advantage of that via their own hard work.

You know, sort of like the boat people.

Well, no, no you haven’t. You have shown that some estimates put 450k as an upward figure, but let’s accept that for the sake of argument.

“You, on the other hand have not made any claim to total number killed by landmines and Agent Orange just that “it always come out larger”. Give us a number, even a general ballpark.”

I did it, but I guess you couldn’t be bothered to do the math, so now I’ll do it for you: If there are 9 million exposed and 30 percent increased risk of death, that would be 2.7 million. That’s a lot of deaths. So let’s knock back some of your objections, and say, ok, a lot of people died also from landmines and smoking and other people’s chemicals. So let’s give your argument a whole lot of credence and say we’ll knock the figure back to 10%. Still comes out to 900k, even before adding in the landmine fatalities.

Your argument about negligent homicide is pretty funny. Can’t believe you’ve seen cases go to trial with less than that, because it doesn’t add up anywhere near to negligent homicide. To do that, you’d have to show that Mexico has a legal duty to provide for the economic sustenance of all of its citizens. Dude – you’re supposed to be a conservative!

Lets make this simple as it is getting boring and you prove your lack of basic research skills on the NYT Barnum thread (two minutes on google works, you don’t need a research library).

Your first claim:
“1. From 1975 onward, more Vietnamese died from American landmines and Agent Orange dispersed by Americans during the war than from the Viet Cong afterward.”

I have shown that 450K people died due to the actions of the communists after the fall of South Vietnam. You, on the other hand have not made any claim to total number killed by landmines and Agent Orange just that “it always come out larger”. Give us a number, even a general ballpark. There has to be something in that “pretty good and profitable memory” you reference.

Regarding Mexico: One could argue that the government of Mexico, through its lack of economic development, etc creates the reasons these people feel they need to cross the border. It then does little or nothing to stop them (in fact you can find many who would argue they actually encourage it) even though the risks are know and is hence negligent in it duty to care for its people. I’ve seen cases go to trail with far less then that.

I’ll just address this paragraph because it goes to the point you make the first paragraph as well: You and I are not public health experts (at least I’m not, and it sounds like you’re not, either.) Citing the docs that you do may be detailed, but they don’t prove the point you’re making, and you’re just misleading yourself. I told Jeffy at the beginning that I don’t have time to go back and find the book where I read the original statistic, so in lieu of that, I quickly gathered some internet docs that I cited. Now you’re slamming me for not having more detailed docs. Sorry, bub, I’m not near an academic library any longer, so you’re either going to have to go with my pretty good and very profitable memory, or with the internet docs that I cited.

As to your point about camp deaths, I believe the 65k includes the camp deaths. If it doesn’t, then go ahead and add them in. They’ll still come in under the Agent Orange figure.

As to your last paragraph, I just can’t wait to hear you make an argument that Mexico commits negligent homicide when an illegal immigrant crosses the desert into the U.S. This will be fun….