Suicidal GIs
It’s epidemic! No, not GI suicide … I mean the GI suicide myth. Even CBS and august epidemiologists who should know better are swallowing it.
CBS:
Little is known about the true scope of suicides among those who have served in the military.
Yes. And some critics would suggest you’ll know even less about it by the time CBS is done with you.
Dr. Steve Rathbun is the acting head of the Epidemiology and Biostatistics Department at the University of Georgia. CBS News asked him to run a detailed analysis of the raw numbers that we obtained from state authorities for 2004 and 2005.
It found that veterans were more than twice as likely to commit suicide in 2005 than non-vets. (Veterans committed suicide at the rate of between 18.7 to 20.8 per 100,000, compared to other Americans, who did so at the rate of 8.9 per 100,000.)
But apparently, those numbers were a little too raw.
Goldfarb at the Weekly Standard:
When I first saw this story, I went and checked the ever reliable Wikipedia for suicide rates–and as I expected, suicide rates for American men are only slightly less than the numbers CBS gave for veterans. Which I suspect could have a lot to do with the fact that veterans have a familiarity with violence and firearms that is slightly higher than average. But leave it to Bill Sweetman, who is more reliable, and on such matters more knowledgeable, than Wikipedia, to break it down:
Shock! Horror!
No.
In the US, male veterans outnumber female veterans 13:1. Since four times as many males as women commit suicide in the general population, you’d expect the rate among veterans to be close to the rate among males - 17.6/100,000 per year in 2002 - and indeed it is, if the CBS raw numbers are correct.
How embarrassing for the epidemiologist, if true. To be pantsed by a pundit.
And when you think about it, an increase of only 1 to 3 suicides per 100,000 is pretty remarkable, when we’re talking about people who are considerably more likely to have seen friends die, to have narrowly avoided death, to have expected to die, and to have killed people than the other 100,000 Americans they are being compared to. In addition to being separated from loved ones and living in stressful circumstances for long periods of time.
UPDATE: CBS methodology here indicates they adjusted for gender. There are some other problems with this study, or news report, or whatever it is, however. Here you go.
Yes, war is stressful. Yes, war can make you crazy and suicidal. We’re aware of that and have seen the many news reports. Apparently, it’s a lot like real life that way.
Funny, my wife was just saying this morning, as she headed out the door with her suitcase, “You haven’t been the same person since you got back from Iraq. It’s like I’ve had two marriages.”
Ever notice how women will sit around swapping childbirth tales like war stories? That’s a traumatic business, fraught with peril. They’re never quite the same after that. Most mature a little more, get serious, become mothers. Some of them get depressed. Some get crazy.
I sure hope she comes back from that two-day business trip.
Seriously, though …
You are coming back, right honey?
… I’m more interested in the normalcy of post-traumatic stress reaction, not to be confused with the disorder. It’s what has happened to millions upon millions of human beings, as a result of combat, as a result of crime or horrible accidents, since the dawn of time. It is what untold numbers of people adjust to and live with, because it is part of the normal human condition. Any studies out there about people who continue on with their lives, and the coping mechanisms that are hardwired into us? Given that, since the dawn of time, we have been combat animals.
I don’t know about that, but there are some people looking into the military records of Vietnam-era PTSD patients, and finding some startling discrepancies. Many of those seeking treatment were not in heavy combat, or in some cases had not been in combat at all.
This April 2006 article announces that studies are being conducted to look at the issue, because of a recent dramatic leap in PTSD claims … not among Iraq and Afghanistan vets but among Vietnam vets 40 years after the fact.
How widespread is PTSD among Vietnam War veterans? Only 3.5 percent of soldiers reported combat stress reactions during the war, yet the National Vietnam Veterans Readjustment Survey in the mid-1980s found a lifetime incidence of 30.9 percent among men who had served in the war zone and an additional 22.5 percent reporting a subclinical variant, said Richard McNally, Ph.D., director of clinical training in the Department of Psychology at Harvard University. Only 15 percent of all troops sent to Vietnam were assigned to combat units, yet two or three times that percentage appear to have experienced PTSD at some point.
Well, as a guy I knew many years ago used to say of his year in a non-combat support role with moderate exposure to fire in Vietnam, he didn’t relax the entire time he was there. He always had a jittery edge, and it was clear his war experience did effect him profoundly, though I have to say he was fundamentally one of the steadier and more reliable people I knew at the time. Or as another friend who is a veteran of extremely heavy combat in Vietnam likes to say, 15 minutes will do it. He’s also a little edgy, admittedly damaged, never sought treatment, preferred his own path, and also one of the more reliable people I know.
Several hypotheses have been advanced to explain this apparent discrepancy, in addition to simple fabrication of war stories. Sampling errors or interviewer biases may account for some of the difference. Noncombat troops like medics or truck drivers might have been exposed to trauma. To some, mere deployment in a war zone might be considered stressful, even if not traumatic. Or there may be other reasons.
“Perhaps they are imposing a trauma narrative on their lives, attributing their problems to military service,” said McNally. The definition of “trauma” has broadened over the years to include pre- and posttrauma factors and noncanonical stressors, from fender benders to normal childbirth.
“Unlike any other diagnosis in the DSM, PTSD implies an etiology,” said another speaker, Sally Satel, M.D., a psychiatrist affiliated with the American Enterprise Institute, a conservative Washington, D.C., think tank. “Everything else is a constellation of symptoms.”
Satel called PTSD “a fear reaction that is not extinguished after the stimulus is gone for at least 30 days.” She would treat anyone with symptoms but would not agree to a trauma-related diagnosis for events that happened longer than five years before.
The current increase in disability claims may be due to chronic PTSD that has existed since the war or to delayed presentation after earlier symptoms, she said, but PTSD may also serve as a “comforting cultural narrative” for life failure, induced by a “victim culture” or a crutch for “folks who need a retirement plan.”
This 2005 study found that only 41 percent of Vietnam-era veterans taken from a sample of people seeking outpatient care for PTSD had documentation of combat exposure, such as the Combat Infantryman Badge, Purple Heart or combat valor awards, while 32 percent were clerks, mechanics, etc., whose records indicated they served on large air bases and other rear-echelon locations.
This study concludes that “PTSD and combat experience in Southeast Asia have not had a major impact on the socioeconomic status of veterans.” Fascinating. I thought it turned them all into homeless suicidal alcoholics. Now, it’s starting to look like it isn’t PTSD or George Bush but CBS that is creating that vast population.
Here’s a study that says PTSD is higher among vets who said they killed, and even higher among those who said they committed atrocities, than those who did not. So, does this suggest that baby killers suffer, or that people who want you to think they are suffering think it sounds better if they also say are baby killers? The abstract doesn’t address this issue.
Topics: media
Posted by Jules Crittenden at 2:40 pm on Wednesday, November 14, 2007
24 Responses to “Suicidal GIs”
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November 14th, 2007 at 4:14 pm
In my most royal voice, I say, “Ah, shuddup if you can’t tell the truth.”
Since we are told on a daily basis that the Earth is for it, can we treat these volk as if we were on one vast life-boat? I say we toss them overboard. Surely they won’t mind sacrificing themselves in the name of the greatest good. It would be a great good to be rid mankind of those who support their lives by feeding off of the dead. We already have vultures and hyenas for that sort of thing, after all.
November 14th, 2007 at 4:15 pm
Oh, and maggots. Mustn’t forget the maggots.
November 14th, 2007 at 4:17 pm
DAMN. Please read: “It would be a great good TO RID,” not “to be rid.”
November 14th, 2007 at 5:04 pm
Looting of the Iraqi museum, non-existent Humvee armor, the Lancet study, Abu Ghraib, Haditha, Beauchamp, National Guard not available for Hurricane Katrina- Kansas twister-San Diego fire, and now legions of demoralized homeless veterans committing suicide in droves. It just never stops.
Shouldn’t a truly loyal opposition with a free and self auditing media be able to come up with just one anecdote, one unexagerated, unsensationalized, unfabricated, verifiable issue, one good example of why America and its military is immoral and fatally flawed and should either be surrendered to the barbarians as a lost cause, or have Bush impeached (whichever comes first)?
November 15th, 2007 at 12:42 am
Vanguard,
You seem to be making the large assumption that the opposition is loyal. The Democratic Party, after all, is the one that purged Joe Lieberman for showing excessive loyalty to the USA in time of war.
They must use falsehood and fabrication, because they are not a loyal opposition. The Dems have been doing their best to bring about the defeat of the USA in war, and that to enemies who represent everything that liberals supposedly are against. The Dems have reverted to type, they are Copperheads.
November 15th, 2007 at 1:52 am
ya know, when it comes right down to it, getting born is stressful; then there are those teething problems, and that first day of school, then there is all the fuss of getting a Job, and keeping it, and going through Life and failures and successes… and then, of course, there is that Death thing to face.
Seriously, I have noticed that men of the WWII generation spent little time whining and complaining because they were fathers and husbands, and had to make a living for all those kids he and his wife had (we baby boomers) . However, as they have grown very old, they tend to think about those years in The War, and maybe get more emotional than they ever did before in their lives.
We are so rich now, we can conjure serious problems out of nothing much. Whining has become a performance art.
November 15th, 2007 at 2:39 am
There was a reason for what some call PSTD and that’s guilt. I couldn’t talk about ‘Nam for about ten years after I came back and that was because I listened to the reports about the casualties and couldn’t get into country to help. About halfway through the tour (I was a reservist and spent two years active) the Navy came to all the line ships on station and asked for volunteers for the River Rats (PBRs). Half of my ship volunteered and since they couldn’t take everyone they only took Enginemen and Gunners Mates. Every one else was left with a guilt trip that affected us greatly. No combat, no watching your buddy die, just guilt. The closest thing to combat that I saw was firing on the Hanoi docks and in the mouth of the Saigon, being the receiver for the crew of a minesweeper that was run over by a freighter. The crew was chopped up, and two died en route to the hospital and five men were swept out to sea and never found. The guilt might be the genesis of the PSTD for those who actually suffered from it but as with everything else the creeps will jump in on the chance to play hero. And no I didn’t need treatment because I knew what guilt was and the only way that I knew to treat it was to deal with it.
I was on a tin can.
November 15th, 2007 at 2:41 am
BTW, I’ve never been suicidal and I’ve never known anyone that was because of military service.
November 15th, 2007 at 3:55 am
Mike, you served while many ditched. No reason for guilt (though I know it is one thing to say that and another to feel it). Most of the vets I know went on with their lives, as men do, with the only after-affect being a deep and abiding anger with the country they served for bugging out on them. You can include me in that bunch.
I love the old tin cans. They were beauties to see, plowing through the water.
November 15th, 2007 at 9:02 am
Michael. I am not making an assumption, I am being sarcastic. They have indeed abandoned the pretense of loyal opposition, aided by a compliant media and sycophant entertainment industry, and perpetrated by an academia no longer interested in the discovery of truth.
November 15th, 2007 at 11:13 am
Dear Jules, et al,
One of the things I’ve noted about the “milblog” community, as here, is the tendency to see any reports on the mental health status of our veterans as a threat to the image of our troops and the military in general.
While I understand that the sensationalism of these reports appear damaging and do little to de-stigmatize the conditions that do exist and do require treatment. Further, while many do not initially report or seem to experience PTS (short term) or PTSD (chronic), those conditions do appear at a later time.
Early detection and treatment serves largely to mitigate the possibility of long term, chronic conditions. Thus, it is important for veterans, family and friends to recognize the condition, accept that it is “normal” and to seek treatment and support as soon as possible.
While I appreciate the efforts made to control promulgation of false facts, sometimes I think that this serves to re-enforce the idea among our veterans that they shouldn’t seek treatment and doing so is still stigmatized and unaccepted among those who our armed forces look up to, who should be advocates for them.
Regardless of whether it is an “epidemic” or not, it is still too high and too prevalent. This is our opportunity to make a positive impact beyond disputing the numbers.
A post concerning these issues and the over-whelmed resources along with attempts to increase services here:
http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/11/veteran_suicide.html
and here:
http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/11/apropos_to_the.html
November 15th, 2007 at 11:19 am
There are assertions out there about the rate of PTSD going up when soldiers are assessed six months down the road, i.e., their initial screening upon return might show little or no symptoms, but months later, the trauma manifests itself. My hypothesis is that studies like the CBS one fail to take into account the larger social, political and cultural context within which soldiers view their experiences in the service.
Six months later, they have had time to absorb the contentious debate in the news on the war. They now undoubtedly have had discussions with others about whether the war was right or wrong, casting doubt on the value of their whole effort. I think the degree to which the political debate and social tension plays a part in instilling or worsening PTSD should be explored.
I think this also played a part in the Vietnam veterans who experienced PTSD upon their return to spitting and derision from their own countrymen. In WWII, soldiers returned to congratulations and victory parades. You don’t hear much from them about PTSD.
Soldiers today are coming home to a society fractured by questions about the war, and derogatory and negative assertions about military operations over there, and this has got to play some part in the mental and emotional health of at-risk veterans. It could explain why vets who never saw combat or trauma show PTSD symptoms. In other words, it’s their own society’s reaction to the war that should be viewed as a culprit in this.
November 15th, 2007 at 11:23 am
P.S., generally the people who scream the loudest about the horror of PTSD rates are usually the same ones who, in the next breath, decry the war, and badmouth the whole effort. None of this, of course, takes away from the fact that it is a serious condition deserving of treatment.
November 15th, 2007 at 12:12 pm
Six months later, they have had time to absorb the contentious debate in the news on the war. They now undoubtedly have had discussions with others about whether the war was right or wrong, casting doubt on the value of their whole effort. I think the degree to which the political debate and social tension plays a part in instilling or worsening PTSD should be explored.
Actually, this is a problem. There have been studies that show that the more a vet feels that his service was honorable and worthwhile, the less likely he is to question that service and the less likely he is to suffer some of the symptoms that result in PTSD.
Another study, though, also suggested that troops who see their enemy as an “honorable” or “worthy” opponent, or even simply as “human”, may also be less susceptible since it adds to their own since of “honorable” service.
The last is one of the problems that may be increasing the numbers of veterans returning with various degrees of stress since the attacks by an unseen enemy through roadside bombs and suiciders is hardly seen as “honorable” to warriors who prepare for and consider frontal, man on man, fighting the epitome of “honorable” warrior.
Other “less than honorable” issues are the attacks on civilians, particularly women and children who are seen as those rightfully and by duty in need of defense.
The fact that there are overt questions of honor and service in the media or daily lives adds to this burden and can be a tipping point for the onset of PTSD.
November 15th, 2007 at 12:18 pm
P.S., generally the people who scream the loudest about the horror of PTSD rates are usually the same ones who, in the next breath, decry the war, and badmouth the whole effort. None of this, of course, takes away from the fact that it is a serious condition deserving of treatment.
that is wrong. I have supported our efforts and troops through out their efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan. However, I find it infinitely aggravating that what we spend most of our time doing on milblogs is trying to defend those who need no defense: ie, those who do not suffer from PTSD or other combat related mental health issues.
We spend most of our time trying to dispute the numbers when, even if they are equal to some civilian number, we should be concerning ourselves with how to mitigate those conditions and insure assistance is available. Most studies show that the earlier the detection and treatment, the less likely Post Traumatic Stress is to turn into a long term, chronic condition.
So, while I appreciate Jule’s post on trying to turn the hysteria down, I also believe that it leads to a lot of “denial” on our part that translates to stigmatizing those who do and “denial” among those who may suffer. Because, basically, what Jules has said and so have a number of posters is: “shut up, suck it up and don’t bother us with your ‘whining’”.
November 15th, 2007 at 2:24 pm
Because, basically, what Jules has said and so have a number of posters is: “shut up, suck it up and don’t bother us with your ‘whining’”.
kat, I respectfully disagree. What I am reading here and what I have commented on here is the tendency of the MSM to take any issue and make it an anti-war issue. The fact that they would stoop to using veterans with (as you aptly point out) real service connected physical and mental problems and exaggerating that for political gain is what is distressing and which ironically, like constant cries of racism from Al Sharpton, dilutes the real issue and hurts the people who really need the help. Yes I am a veteran, so I know a little about this.
November 15th, 2007 at 3:43 pm
175,000 troops are in Iraq and another 20,000 in Afghanistan. Several thousands more are in support roles or actively patrolling with other nations.
Significant numbers of troops from Iraq will be returning over the next few months after experiencing over a year of some of the toughest combat tours in the entire war. They will be returning to a system that is already overwhelmed even as the VA implements new programs and adds service providers, they are doing so based on numbers that are already two years old.
Was the report political? I don’t know, but maybe it made some people perk up and pay attention that there is still a problem to be addressed. Maybe, somebody will see it and figure out they aren’t alone in their depression. what I am more concerned about is that the report spent too much time trying to beat up the VA admin whose been in there a little over a year and not enough time talking about services that are available for veterans.
November 15th, 2007 at 4:56 pm
My uncles and my Dad served in WW2 and no one gave a damn about their psychic wounds.
and the only reason a lot of people are making an issue of this now is that they have a political agenda, kat.
November 15th, 2007 at 5:12 pm
If these reports were motivated by an actual concern for vets, the only thing I’d have to say is that it’s about damn time! Lies do no one any good, not civilians and not veterans. These sorts of lies–the same kind that were promulgated after Viet Nam–denigrate vets, saying in effect, that you can’t trust a vet not to go off the deep end at any moment.
It isn’t a matter of just sucking it up, it is a matter of learning how to understand what is happening to you. For some people, this means professional help; others reason it out for themselves. Speaking personally, there are some things that will never leave me, no matter the therapy or reasoning. The images, and even more, the smells and certain sounds, are as much a part of my mind as the multiplication tables. While my initial reaction to these stimuli is sudden and involuntary, I ultimately control my response. I learned to do this as I have learned to control myself in every other aspect of my life, like most other veterans who have experienced combat, or the results of combat. This doesn’t mean that vets are unaffected by their experiences. It just means that as adults, most people realize that nothing is accomplished by talking about it to people who don’t have a clue what you’re talking about. Those who are unable to overcome the sudden memories, for whatever reason, need help and deserve the best that we can give them. Most don’t, thankfully.
While the horror of war is an extreme case, military personnel are not the only people who face severe trauma. Most people do at some time in their lives. If men gave into their emotions without a fight for their sanity, there’d be no human race.
November 16th, 2007 at 12:25 am
Saltydog, the USS Dennis J. Buckley DD-808 was exactly that, a beautiful ship. Now of course, razor blades.
Sigh, they kept the USS Constellation but not the DJBuckley. Will life ever be fair? ;)
November 16th, 2007 at 5:41 pm
Now I know its fun to accuse of CBS of “abandoned the pretense of loyal opposition” and conflating them with the Dems, who are “copperheads.” But you should really read the article first before asserting their treasonous nature.
As their methodology page clearly states, twice actually, the methodology is adjusted by gender and sex.
“We asked the acting head of epidemiology and biostatistics at the University of Georgia, Steve Rathbun, to calculate the rate of suicide for 2004 to 2005. Rathbun adjusted the rates of suicide for age, gender and any potential error in the gathering of the raw data by the states.”
and
“All of the rates of suicide we presented are adjusted. The overall rates are adjusted for age and gender in both the veteran and non-veteran populations. The male and female rates are age adjusted. And the age breakdowns are adjusted for gender.”
Adjusted rates are a more sophisticated statistical calculation (beyond simple mathematics) that takes into consideration variables unique to a particular population like age and gender.”
I know we’re all itching to condemn the treacherous varmints, but surely you can control yourselfs long enough to read the article first.
November 16th, 2007 at 6:25 pm
Skyler’s right. It is fun. And the methodology does state that, as I noticed when I poked around a little more last night for a related piece. Anyway, there are some other problems with that. Stay tuned.
November 17th, 2007 at 4:12 am
“As their methodology page clearly states, twice actually, the methodology is adjusted by gender and sex.”
And, Bill Clinton stated that he couldn’t remember whether he’d ever been alone with Monica in the White House.
November 17th, 2007 at 4:34 pm
A “comforting cultural narrative” for life failure
Look, Ma! The totally awesome Jules Crittenden of forward movement– a Boston Herald city editor and columnist and Pajamas Media Network blogger extraordinaire — links to our Sid Blumenthal post with a pithy Ha.Our war dead are called a waste